Why Do We Need to Learn to Dance with Robots, PAUL RUBENSTEIN?

00:00:14:

00:00:18: Hello and welcome to the Zadkorn

00:00:20: podcast.

00:00:21: He is Gero Hesse, I am very enthusiastic about today's guest... ...I met him one and a half years ago in Las Vegas on the ATAC conference.

00:00:31: His company, or the company he works for had a really great booth and so many innovative topics to discuss.

00:00:39: And we have two mini-podcasts there about ten minutes... ...and on that day I already felt ah!

00:00:45: We should talk again.

00:00:46: He has so many interesting things to say in today's day.

00:00:50: So I welcome here Paul Rubenstein, or as we would say in Germany, Rubenstein.

00:00:58: I respond

00:00:59: to both!

00:00:59: Yeah

00:01:01: that's great.

00:01:02: so your chief evangelist and advisor at Vizier And um... We'll talk about Viziers a little bit later.

00:01:08: Let us start with you As the person.

00:01:11: You have very interesting past professional path.

00:01:16: You've been a CHRO.

00:01:18: give us a little bit of background.

00:01:21: How did you end up at Vizier?

00:01:24: Sure, well, Gero good morning again our afternoon.

00:01:27: I don't know what time anyone's going to be listening.

00:01:29: so...

00:01:30: Good morning!

00:01:31: Good Afternoon!

00:01:32: Good Evening!

00:01:33: And um i really appreciate that your audience is listening in English and uh the first thing you'll notice about me is my accent.

00:01:44: it will start to come out.

00:01:47: So if my English is a little bit funny, that's the reason so for your audience there.

00:01:53: Um...so it's interesting.

00:01:57: I never wanted to be head of HR.

00:02:00: It wasn't something that was in my career plan.

00:02:03: i worked A Little Bit In HR when I Was Younger and I became fascinated with You know, the science of HR.

00:02:12: I love the disciplines of industrial psychology behavior economics.

00:02:17: you Know what.

00:02:18: how do people and culture?

00:02:20: And work fit together.

00:02:24: There's a lot of stuff you doing HR that i don't know.

00:02:27: it was not super interested in But one day i saw The first sort of hr record keeping systems as they were coming out and the technologies.

00:02:39: This is interesting, right?

00:02:41: How do we start to have a more data-driven approach?

00:02:45: because when I joined HR it was a little bit fluffy.

00:02:47: A lot of people still accuse that but like you know... We don't see as much anymore.

00:02:52: and um i immediately learned To understand systemic systems thinking.

00:03:01: And how does hr actually run their processes to gather data so you can recognize patterns?

00:03:08: Because, you know as humans we can only see so much and You can only have some many HR people out there to help and advise And in C patterns and be that trusted advisor.

00:03:20: But if you can start to get the data capture In a meaningful way I was sold.

00:03:25: I was so interested in this and that led me into learning how to do process re-engineering and manage technology projects.

00:03:33: It is just amazing If your good at that you wind up in consulting.

00:03:37: So I spent a lot of time really doing HR transformation, what was diving into the economics and service delivery model and technology choices on large complicated global HR functions?

00:03:58: My work has taken me to Germany!

00:04:00: uh for a airline that showed me her name unnamed.

00:04:06: in frankfurt i'm working on their hr transformation back in the day and um it's been really amazing, I am grateful to have taken me across the world.

00:04:18: But!

00:04:20: I saw a lot of work.

00:04:21: make HR more efficient And always questioned was HR more effective?

00:04:29: Do the dollars you spend, there's always a lot of scrutiny because money is spent in HR as somebody else's margin and revenue commitment.

00:04:37: And they're just like hey can make it cheaper?

00:04:40: Can you cut the cost?

00:04:41: Can handle more growth with less people?

00:04:46: Efficiency efficiency efficiency.

00:04:50: but I was only asking them questions if we spend a dollar on HR how do we draw the line to say did improve margins did include revenue.

00:05:02: We know that there's lots of studies had loose connections around engagement, pay

00:05:09: etc.,

00:05:11: but have been fascinated with the impact HR could make and part led me to a second part in my career where I was really focused on how do we write better talent strategy?

00:05:22: How something that is granular and specific enough.

00:05:26: they can make lots of decisions around it at a micro level.

00:05:32: And I will tell you, Garry, for years i was advising heads of HR there's always jealous to the CFO.

00:05:41: The CFO Was great taking business strategy and turning into financial strategy.

00:05:55: financial strategy into bite-sized chunks.

00:05:58: And so you knew on a P&L level, at the right level of granularity should I be focused on cost or revenue?

00:06:08: What should my investment hypothesis be?

00:06:10: how fast did i grow?

00:06:11: How slow Should I go?

00:06:12: what Did I have to do?

00:06:14: and twelve times A year You had a moment At which you said are all My small choices leading up To The collective outcome transparency, accountability real clarity.

00:06:27: So I went off for a little while and learned to work on the methodology of writing better talent strategy.

00:06:34: how do you talk about something more than FTE in dollars?

00:06:39: And location...how did you start to describe this shape of your workforce?

00:06:44: things that were familiar with spans & layers but also like Skills?

00:06:48: what skills should be growing and shrinking?

00:06:50: right, you know?

00:06:51: What should the specific ratios of Cost relative to sales be in a first specific segment.

00:06:59: Right how much leadership capacity do we need?

00:07:02: You know what capabilities mean.

00:07:04: there are lots of ways Of describing The workforce rate.

00:07:09: think about it, you Know HR has lots of record-keeping systems because It's a rich rich set of data because people are so rich.

00:07:17: Anyway, I started writing these strategies and then the question became like the CFO how do you keep pace with them?

00:07:24: And for anybody who's ever been through an HR technology project.

00:07:29: You always know that reporting comes last!

00:07:32: i don't know why because the reporting in analytics is the whole point of it but it always seemed to come last... ...and HR systems are still today Pretty disjointed, you know.

00:07:44: You got one system for record keeping it Got one sister for core of her a for applicant tracking and get one for the core record-keeping?

00:07:51: You might have another one for timekeeping you might have that secret spreadsheet with The special company whatever it is.

00:08:01: And I've always known that the richness of understanding patterns happens when you look broadly and you connect all that data.

00:08:09: So I was obsessed with how do we make it easy for not just HR, but from managers to understand what was going on the full three hundred and sixty degree picture without them having to be an expert analyst or beg-for-the data.

00:08:25: How did we make It Easy so that it creates a rhythm of... Just like this CFO has?

00:08:37: like in the rhythm of a P&L to say, hey everyone you should focus on this and these are the decisions.

00:08:44: Anyway so I was working at a consulting firm.

00:08:47: i'm actually leading leadership practice.

00:08:50: I am obsessed with assessment sciences.

00:08:52: we can talk about

00:08:53: that.".

00:08:53: And he's doing all his work.

00:08:55: but at the same time I was obsessed and I joined there because I believed that the world needed HR investments not to make HR efficient, but to make it more effective.

00:09:21: And so that led me to the modern world of people analytics.

00:09:25: little did i know?

00:09:28: My God when I started their People Analytics wasn't even title right.

00:09:31: It was like an obscure person in a back office That this would take me into the world of AI because data sets that we had in the strong semantic layer and We were in the right place at the right time to be able to become a leader.

00:09:51: In workforce AI, it's just been magical.

00:09:55: so I've been able to have a front seat you know a front a front row seat To watch the early stages of what's working and not working with AI in HR.

00:10:07: So that's a bit about me.

00:10:10: What are right?

00:10:11: very interesting?

00:10:12: It's a roller coaster.

00:10:13: I was like, why did you know?

00:10:15: like?

00:10:15: this is what i always tell people.

00:10:17: Yeah looking back it looks always very clear but when you do it You don't know.

00:10:22: obviously

00:10:23: Careers just sort of happen And you have to keep your eyes and ears open to possibilities.

00:10:29: Yeah, it's great.

00:10:30: And now you're almost ten years with Vizier which is great and we'll come back later to Viziers.

00:10:37: but let's talk a little bit about your sub-stack Which also really something that worth reading.

00:10:45: I will post the link in show notes.

00:10:47: obviously I like the title, HR is Dead and Long Live HR.

00:10:53: So iIike this let's start with obvious question which version of HR is dying?

00:10:59: And Which Version Of HR Is Emerging ?

00:11:03: I think This Is A Great Question.

00:11:05: um...and it There'S a Lot Of History Here Like I Have A Nineteen Nineties Harvard Business Review Magazine That I Keep Around.

00:11:15: that's Been an Inspiration for Me For Years And the cover is, uh... Is HR dead?

00:11:20: Or should we kill HR?

00:11:21: and every couple of years

00:11:23: somebody wants to- This question comes up again.

00:11:25: Yeah

00:11:25: Oh my god!

00:11:26: Constantly constantly.

00:11:30: I used to look at it that lens from.

00:11:32: you know people were like hey HR's the police.

00:11:35: i don't want them getting in the way of business right You know there was a big history of HR being focused on risk But it also goes back to one of my first bosses I ever had.

00:11:49: I said, what's the purpose of HR?

00:11:52: He looked at me and he said we need to do our jobs so well that we put ourselves out of business because everyone will make better decisions.

00:12:04: um... And think about people not just as a piece of work to be run through but understand the whole person And think about the sciences of people and the psychology of people in a really meaningful way.

00:12:23: I said, oh my god!

00:12:25: People are too busy to do

00:12:26: that.".

00:12:26: He goes yep... That's why we'll always have an HR department.

00:12:33: The functional specialties exist for reason right?

00:12:39: Modern corporations—and even the HR Department.

00:12:42: there was time where it was buncha generalists.

00:12:45: everybody did everything And over time, like anything you have functional specialties.

00:12:53: For years HR had a functional moat right?

00:12:58: A competitive moat around it I think for a couple of things.

00:13:01: HR was the expert in labor law and HR was The Expert In Handling Employment Issues.

00:13:09: HR Was The Expert in Benefits or Pensions Or Comparing Pay.

00:13:17: Had a wall around it because that was the most sensitive data and it needed to be kept separate.

00:13:23: right.

00:13:23: eighty percent of What people might need about labor law or whatever?

00:13:29: Well, they've been googling at for awhile.

00:13:31: And now they just ask chat GP to your Claude and Let's face it It's pretty good Right?

00:13:39: does he get you all the way there?

00:13:40: no but it gets you far enough.

00:13:43: Where that last twenty percent might have a diminishing return The record-keeping, we all see what's happening with Databricks and Snowflake in the new powerful enterprise data stores.

00:14:00: And they desire to have things connected so that it can power AI well... And the ability to secure data centrally has gotten a lot better right?

00:14:11: And still distributed So that moat is disappearing.

00:14:16: So I think the old HR of books and records, and be good at compliance in risk.

00:14:40: industrial psychology, behavioral economics work design.

00:14:49: And so the ability to really get back to being organizational development consultants and go deep in those sciences—to the point at which they're applied in a way that AI can't apply them?

00:15:05: I think that is huge right?

00:15:11: Always have a place if they double down in it.

00:15:14: I don't think in the future, It's going to be good not just to be A generalist business person who decides They want to be an HR because you like people?

00:15:23: i think You're gonna Have To Like science.

00:15:25: i Think your Gonna have to like data.

00:15:27: i mean even People analytics.

00:15:29: you know that i've been involved In for The last ten Years.

00:15:33: i ask is That a department in hrs organization Or Is it a skill that everybody has to have.

00:15:42: I don't know, like what do you think?

00:15:46: The letter actually...I think it should really be a skill of the people bring with them or are being trained in.

00:15:55: yeah because something like Vizier would be useless.

00:16:05: It's funny.

00:16:05: we've spent a lot of time and all the HR transfer rate.

00:16:11: I want you to be more business focused.

00:16:14: You know, yes everybody should have good business acumen if you want to work in business.

00:16:25: The notion that it's an and for HR Amuses me.

00:16:30: It's the baseline for anybody who wants to work In any department right?

00:16:37: And so you know you should Have this same understanding as procurement as finance, everybody's got to understand it.

00:16:44: And yeah you have to be intimate with your business model and the profit model of whoever you're supporting right?

00:16:58: I think that is part of it!

00:17:00: You also need a lens on human factors effectiveness or behavioral sciences etc...and bring those lenses As a department, like.

00:17:14: it's opening up all kinds of questions and the technology is changing this too.

00:17:18: Should HR be federated or centralized?

00:17:21: Right what should we distributed which would be autonomous?

00:17:25: who should you know?

00:17:26: how many systems do We need?

00:17:30: You Know Who should make pay decisions.

00:17:34: And The biggest change Is HRs in its third wave Of service delivery design.

00:17:42: The first one was really born out of the specialty knowledge.

00:17:48: It's what we learned when were young, you have to be a trusted advisor.

00:17:53: You know how to connect with people and help individual executives by gaining their trust in giving them another perspective.

00:18:12: reporting requirements, the threshold went up.

00:18:15: And as technology became available but we want to drive costs down We shifted to have both people-to-people interactions and sys end people.

00:18:24: two systems interactions.

00:18:26: These are our call centers or portals ourselves service on mobile applications.

00:18:31: It was very much designed around how we Effectively deal from both a quality in cost perspective with any inbound inquiry to HR.

00:18:45: But now we're in this third wave and that's systems-to-systems, And we have to realize the frontier at which we engage on HR issues is changing because when you think about front door to HR it will be other agents in Claude.

00:19:07: So now HR has this huge moment where they have to digitize what may not been digitized before.

00:19:14: I need to serve up the scheduling agent at the manufacturing plant, and it's a list of people.

00:19:22: but i needed that context written down about.

00:19:26: hey you know we think right parameter is keep engagement high.

00:19:32: in our science around us says don't schedule more than this or that, right?

00:19:37: Or here are the burnout factors you should look at etc.

00:19:40: So you need to be able and often there was a conversation with somebody who is managing scheduling system.

00:19:46: now it's an agent-to-agent so you have give knowledge.

00:19:52: sometimes in power point sometime people heads make available to these agents.

00:19:57: thats huge new frontier for HR But it's also a huge opportunity.

00:20:03: Let me pause for second before we talk about that.

00:20:11: I, we

00:20:32: live in the Golden Age.

00:20:33: We are about to enter the golden age of workforce planning and what's interesting about it is its both rhythm um and the dimensions that we plan around or changing.

00:20:48: i had a customer uh at the beginning this year look at me and say hey paul you know we're now doing our work force our annual workforce plan Twice a quarter, sometimes three times a quarter.

00:21:05: And I looked at him and said that's awesome!

00:21:08: Why do you still call it the annual workforce plan?

00:21:10: He shrugs and looks to me goes i don't know tradition um...and so what you're starting to see here is both of us speed of planning and uh..what we planned for is changing.

00:21:24: Um....And quite frankly our ability to this better before because the HR systems are better than ever before, and connecting the HR system is a better form.

00:21:35: So if I want to write down my workforce strategy... And i wanted to include things like hey-I have goals for what we've trained people on in capabilities.

00:21:47: they demonstrate productivity.

00:21:50: again.

00:21:50: you know how your direct report or structure shapes look right?

00:21:57: In the old way You might just have FTE and headcount, maybe location.

00:22:02: And at the end of year you would look it up... ...and you wouldn't respond often to the workforce plan until its showed-up in finance as a variance for P&L right?

00:22:13: Or when they were dusted off looking into the end years like oh wow!

00:22:16: They didn't make that plan.

00:22:17: how do we adjust?

00:22:19: well now what we're able to do is describe digitally with many dimensions The shape of the workforce we're looking for because nobody wants to lay off.

00:22:33: people as head of HR will tell you.

00:22:34: Nobody wants to do that.

00:22:36: and worse is when you make layoffs without really understanding how to do this surgically, right?

00:22:45: You hear these stories of people making layoffs in rehiring.

00:22:49: uh...the people cause they just weren't surgical enough.

00:22:52: And we have go away from laying-off using a spreadsheet to the equivalent of a magnetic MRI, a Magnetic Resonance Imaging.

00:23:03: You know you don't even want an x-ray.

00:23:04: that's two dimensional...you want three dimensional view.

00:23:08: so what smart organizations are starting do is elaborate on way.

00:23:15: they're describing the workforce plan and the town strategy or work force plan describing it digitally, adding metrics and measures so that they can understand are we keeping pace with all those different dimensions?

00:23:29: And instead of waiting until you... It shows up at the end to the hiring.

00:23:37: Ended in the quarter or into the financial year They're bringing that information forward to the Hiring Manager So that The Hiring manager Can connect That momentary small decision To a larger plan.

00:23:49: because Carol, you've run an operation.

00:23:52: If somebody quits your reflexive instinct is to replace them.

00:23:57: But it may be.

00:23:58: if you understood or were connected to a larger strategy You would say okay let me stop.

00:24:03: This is my moment too.

00:24:05: hire different skillset Or not.

00:24:07: Replace the job and re-engineer The task because I have this strategic plan that Is accessible?

00:24:14: Not just do a few people in HR and a few football finance but is imbued and part of my operating rhythm, it has the shapes that help me understand how to make a decision about skills or level.

00:24:35: It is connected also with learning department as well as recruiting department

00:24:41: in all of stick view.

00:24:43: My question now is in theory I can completely follow you?

00:24:49: But let me ask a question.

00:24:52: Let's take into account the super-fast development of AI during, say two to three years.

00:25:01: I mean The whole AI topic is way older but in the mainstream and also in HR now last two or three years were really super dynamic

00:25:12: Amazing.

00:25:14: Who would have thought that two years ago?

00:25:16: And if you sit down, make a planning... A workforce plan for the next year very difficult to really see what will happen and also their economy.

00:25:26: how with the economy development it's all so major thing.

00:25:29: So we need also lot of sources coming from general economic development not only information within your company.

00:25:38: Is this what you're taking

00:25:40: on account?

00:25:41: And so this is the other thing when we talk about planning for shape.

00:25:45: Okay?

00:25:48: This makes a lot of people uncomfortable, but I want you to get an image... Do you have hurricanes in

00:25:57: Germany?!

00:25:59: Not really!

00:26:00: But we know what they are!

00:26:03: On the eastern coasts of the United States, you grew up with hurricanes and one of things that is the hurricane map.

00:26:13: And it's a cone, right?

00:26:16: So imagine there...the smallest point on the cone and the widest point of the cone The smallest point moving forward Right!

00:26:26: As you get closer wherever your are the smallest points going through There'a zone confidence.

00:26:33: how much wind will hit or rain?

00:26:36: as that gets close more data the cone narrows.

00:26:43: In many ways, that's what we have to do with a workforce

00:26:47: plan.".

00:26:48: We don't always know But we know that we have to reach up into it and ask questions.

00:27:02: And create this sort of zone of confidence, right?

00:27:05: So you at least know.

00:27:07: okay I don't need the old way but should be hiring somewhat in new ways.

00:27:12: You make educated guesses.

00:27:14: People do business all time pricing around location strategy.

00:27:20: It isn't always done.

00:27:21: in talent strategy.

00:27:22: We tend sit there and translate workforce plan into a requisition that is so tight, right?

00:27:31: That it's like a checklist of have and have not rather than a zone of hey I think these are the eighty percent right capabilities.

00:27:39: And any twenty percent that i'm going to experiment on either side in hiring that person

00:27:44: kind off defining dynamic guardrails in certain way.

00:27:48: one hundred...I love the way you put that!

00:27:51: That's great..and that requires little bit confidence but also requires people get comfortable understanding the data that they have and Understanding that sometimes you often make a decision.

00:28:02: That is directionally correct.

00:28:04: A lot of people You know find security in a level of precision, you know As few degrees of deviation as possible.

00:28:16: standard deviation is possible from that decision.

00:28:19: But in many ways especially at pace which we're running It's got to be directional car And by the way You have to start making a whole new set of assumptions.

00:28:30: One the best things I see people doing is they're taking the technology plan and their starting say, this again shape for work force concept there sitting in saying i'm gonna take on job under deconstructed into the tasks.

00:28:49: I am going to stack those task top-to bottom.

00:28:52: what is truly human And what could I be added on to this?

00:28:55: What is the human capability that i wish i had?

00:28:59: and then at The bottom, one of the things.

00:29:00: That are agentic now next and later Because it used To be when you would plan a technology deployment You were planning On getting rid Of whole heads right to pay for It.

00:29:14: but Now we have This and it Would Be like A year Long Plan Before You Deployed That Technology and Actually Change Out the Labor.

00:29:22: four to eight week cycles, twelve-week cycles.

00:29:25: The agentic capability is impacting parts of the job.

00:29:29: so a good part of the workforce planning means getting in there and understanding the connection between tasks skills jobs and people And bringing a new dynamism too it right?

00:29:44: You have to be planful around it.

00:29:46: you have to give strategic guidance.

00:29:48: Otherwise people revert to inertia, you know it's like I've always done this way.

00:29:56: They need the psychological safety they need the incentive systems To work on work Reimagine work because those are the organizations that adapt quickly to AI?

00:30:10: There gonna have some competitive advantage.

00:30:12: That will be hard to make up for others.

00:30:16: That's now an interesting point in our discussion.

00:30:19: that brings me up.

00:30:21: Obviously, you're sitting here in Germany and I'm interested to see your view on it.

00:30:29: It seems like North America is a little far ahead thinking this way... Do you have any German experience?

00:30:39: How would you say that, is Germany far behind from your perspective or different thinking.

00:30:45: Or what do they are?

00:30:48: it's a matter of time.

00:30:49: in one or two years we will have the same idea over here.

00:30:57: One other things I learned living in Germany.

00:31:00: It was a lesson That came to me and was about change.

00:31:04: And um... Talked with when i was young And somebody, we had a committee meeting because there was a committee to decide on something.

00:31:13: Uh and going into the committee meeting uh The project sponsor said to me hey I just want to prepare you for this.

00:31:21: um what do you call a thirteen-to one vote of the Committee?

00:31:25: Uh i said a win... ...and she looked at me and said no it's a tie!

00:31:31: Once you understand that You'll understand Um the threshold per change and the need for overwhelming agreement to move forward, right?

00:31:42: Because it's not necessarily a risk aversion.

00:31:46: It is a principle measure twice in cut

00:31:49: once.".

00:31:50: Now I'll compare that and contrast this with the famous Mark Zuckerberg line or Move Fast & Break Things which was also Not Great.

00:32:00: by The Way there's lot of negative But I do find that the threshold for change and adapting new systems is higher in a lot of European countries, both some of its regulatory.

00:32:21: Some of it's cultural.

00:32:23: In the

00:32:23: U.S.,

00:32:24: I would say also...I thought it'd depend on industry.

00:32:30: You know highly regulated industries would move slower But wow, I am impressed with for example pharma and bioscience.

00:32:42: Highly regulated but you know there are some of the vizier customers that have moved the quickest using AI in human capital And they're also using it research all this other stuff.

00:32:54: so i don't know like what's your... What is magic reason?

00:32:59: different countries change at different paces?

00:33:04: Yeah, I think you already described it.

00:33:06: It's a mixture of culture off the law that is basically Different in different regions and countries.

00:33:16: But then again its might be also something like the actual pressure That's really there.

00:33:22: I mean you gotta see that I can't talk about the whole of Europe but being German Germany had great times during the nineties and the two thousands.

00:33:33: The economy was always so good that perhaps there was no real pressure to just move.

00:33:39: And this is now everywhere in Germany, we have to change many things at the same time basically but not used too fast changing things and also precision.

00:33:52: It must be one hundred twenty percent and then we can change it.

00:33:55: Yes, yes!

00:33:57: That's a good thing.

00:33:58: obviously

00:33:58: so... I used to argue with industrial psychologists as we were developing assessment science right?

00:34:07: And they were obsessed with degrees of validity as being the reason people would buy.

00:34:13: And you have to remember like, the eighty-twenty rules.

00:34:24: Like what will... What is it?

00:34:28: So I think that attitudes are changing and i think your right The notion that old rules of world order don't apply anymore Are getting more.

00:34:41: people say maybe they should change.

00:34:43: We're also connected.

00:34:45: It's easier see positive impact than negative.

00:34:51: Now, the media loves to hype negative impact.

00:34:55: But I've even seen that soften especially since narrative has changed from big foundation model houses of hey AI is going take your jobs they were saying.

00:35:08: because why did say at first?

00:35:12: Because old trade in technology sales you give me dollars And you'll pay for those dollars with labor savings, right?

00:35:22: Even Sam Altman and all these other that have come out recently.

00:35:25: There's been lots of articles like okay maybe we're not going to have this wave of unemployment and replace all these jobs like we thought we would which is causing pressure because a lot of companies are spending on AI and aren't quite sure where that savings will come from.

00:35:40: but if anybody has ever watched the baseball game We're in the first may be second inning into.

00:35:49: We got a long way to go.

00:35:52: Oh, I would completely agree.

00:35:54: it's just the start.

00:35:55: right now let's say Let's go back to Vizier and talk about this little bit.

00:36:02: if workforce intelligence is new operating layer for HR where exactly does Viziers sit in that architecture?

00:36:11: So vizier sits at an incredibly important place in the architecture And investment hypothesis Right?

00:36:20: So there are a lot.

00:36:21: To me, they're two types of HR technology.

00:36:24: you can buy right something that makes the HR function more efficient record keeping etc.

00:36:30: and Something That Makes The HR Function More Impactful.

00:36:36: It Actually Translates Into Better Talent Decisions Better People Decisions That Can Be Directly Connected to Margin Or uh, you growth or whatever.

00:36:50: You know your financial goals on okay?

00:36:53: Visier sits at that um in this notion of workforce intelligence and brings it all together as a way of operating Your talent programs And your HR.

00:37:08: um intelligence right.

00:37:09: so what do I mean by that?

00:37:12: In the modern world Right Everybody wants attribution.

00:37:18: Okay You spend a dollar, you go to the CFO and especially marketing.

00:37:22: people know this.

00:37:23: Hey I want to spend some money on

00:37:25: marketing.".

00:37:26: What do i get for it?

00:37:28: Exactly right what am I going to get from it?

00:37:30: be able show that!

00:37:31: And classic question in HR has always been was if you wanna run a retention program or improve engagement whatever program your running leadership investment in people did at work?

00:37:49: Was it the person?

00:37:51: Was is environment, was that program design or was it HR's execution of it.

00:38:01: But so much isn't on a digital bed right and running those rails.

00:38:13: but now we can do.

00:38:18: So what happens is, you know like this year started in people analytics and workforce and work force planning.

00:38:26: Okay?

00:38:27: But now it's workforce intelligence as well as the planning and design of the orgs being able to do that all digitally right Manipulate the data and almost like you remember a diversity minority report with Tom Cruise.

00:38:44: Sure where?

00:38:44: okay, well he's got this screens that is able to redraw.

00:38:47: Like imagine rejoin your org chart right buddy will see like hey if I move This manager here what does it mean for retention?

00:38:54: Right because this person has a track record bringing all That dated together in a rich way For people to do.

00:39:01: we've conquered that.

00:39:02: right now We become The leaders of that And It continues To grow and Be Rich.

00:39:06: but now being able to serve that agents, right?

00:39:10: And run an agentic program like around talent or retention are staffing is where it's at.

00:39:18: Right because so imagine you don't want a talk to HR.

00:39:23: okay and I apologize in advance to all the HR listeners out there by guess what they're some people who avoid HR at all costs.

00:39:31: Okay But that's important population for us to reach.

00:39:35: But now imagine you are sensing without a HR person being in the room.

00:39:41: Hey, that data says this person is a flight risk.

00:39:45: Well we don't have to wait to run a program right?

00:39:48: It can alert that manager say pay attention to this.

00:39:52: Here are the things That you should do.

00:39:55: here's our general program rules and here's the specific data about that Person.

00:40:01: I Can Now Deliver A Program that is almost autonomous digitally.

00:40:08: I can see, did the manager respond to this signal or not?

00:40:12: Did they have a conversation or not?

00:40:15: was the program design?

00:40:16: maybe i'm gonna allow for five percent raise may be allowed per seven percent raised me do some ab testing just in which one works better.

00:40:24: very much digital environment.

00:40:28: four these talent programs takes us into new age of design measurement and science for HR.

00:40:36: And it allows us to once again redeploy the people in HR up the food chain, do those things that are truly unique people-to-do relationship strategy

00:40:50: etc.,

00:40:52: less of routine program design maintenance.

00:40:58: Does this make sense?

00:41:00: Absolutely!

00:41:00: Thanks so much For all of you listeners.

00:41:04: now, think what?

00:41:06: This is interesting.

00:41:07: You find the link to his ear obviously also in show notes and... In terms of time it's a pity because I could talk about two hours.

00:41:17: that would be fine but this already longer.

00:41:19: Zadkwarn episode.

00:41:21: I apologize for audience!

00:41:22: It's been twenty minutes and its been forty.

00:41:26: Its great.

00:41:28: i really like discussion For this time, I'm pretty sure we'll talk another time in the future.

00:41:33: But for this time my last question would be regarding your keynote tagline culture and not technology?

00:41:41: That's interesting because you've just spent forty minutes talking about AI data workforce intelligence.

00:41:49: so why in the end will culture matter more than technology?

00:41:52: from your point of view

00:41:54: History has a lot to teach us.

00:41:57: what is going on now?

00:42:01: If you think back to the automotive industry in the nineteen seventies eighties, right?

00:42:08: Let's think about Toyota and The American manufacturers.

00:42:14: Both of them had the same access To technology robotics.

00:42:17: both of them have the same Access to capital write an access to knowledge.

00:42:23: um toyota gave us the toyota way.

00:42:30: It popularized lean six sigma continuous improvement right all of these sciences that a lot of us take for granted today.

00:42:39: and some of the super gotten.

00:42:42: What they did is they sat in circles, and they taught me employees looked at the robots instead.

00:42:47: the robot should do this.

00:42:48: we should be this.

00:42:49: let's every day think about what went well on the assembly line between us and the robots how to improve it.

00:42:55: rate they had a culture Where it was psychologically safe to say I will give up part of my work.

00:43:02: They had incentives and managers that were trained To you know encourage this an analyze This and they spent time in the methodology around them, right?

00:43:12: And they end.

00:43:13: one would argue they have a quality and cost advantage That exists to this day.

00:43:19: and obviously this.

00:43:20: exactly the same thing happens again.

00:43:22: Yeah, and then in the US They had the same robots and people sabotage them.

00:43:28: The case studies are out there,

00:43:30: you know?

00:43:32: They threw it at him.

00:43:33: right.

00:43:34: they said hey You know this is a threat to your job.

00:43:36: or our goal is reduce labor fights with the unions etc.

00:43:41: rather than unleashing a combined human robot capability.

00:43:48: Right And so like.

00:43:49: we need to learn to dance with the robots.

00:43:51: and this is about culture.

00:43:54: right because Everybody we're gonna reach a point by the way.

00:43:58: I think where in the next two years Where everybody's going to have access and white-collar work an information work pretty much?

00:44:04: The same agents, right it'll level out And we're Gonna be left back with that.

00:44:10: Who and how do We had a culture That gives us the best performance and our thinking around this has To include the dynamic of How we dance With those robots will ultimately determine a company's AI outcomes, not spend or tech.

00:44:27: Thank

00:44:29: you for this great explanation and thank you as well... ...for taking time to talk with me here on Zartkorn was really a pleasure!

00:44:38: I wish all the best for months to come.

00:44:41: Pretty sure we'll talk again.

00:44:43: so thanks

00:44:44: very much.

00:44:44: And i hope see in person soon?

00:44:47: Yeah i hope so too.

00:44:48: alright have a nice day Paul.

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